Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

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bstahly
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Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Post by bstahly » Tue 27. Jun 2017, 14:31

Larry
Zimmermann was well known as Anabaptist at that point. But I don't see the word after his name as Teuffer.
I agree that the initial letter looks like an “E” and I certainly didn't take the word as “Täufer” when I first saw it---but then I am not very good at deciphering the old handwriting and always have to get hhg to help me. But when I saw that Renato had suggested “Täufer” it made sense, and I remembered seeing other initial “Ts” written in that stylized fashion.

I notice that there is quite a large gap between the birth of the twins in 1687 and the baptism of Johannes at Schwarzenegg in 1695. I wonder whether there were additional children that Christian Zimmermann managed to prevent from being baptized? It is even possible that Christian was not present at the baptism of his son in 1695, and that it was done without his consent, or perhaps with his tacit consent. In the Sigriswil KB I have seen several examples of children of Anabaptist parents being presented for baptism by other relatives, I am guessing with the tacit consent of one or both parents. As the 1690s were a repressive time for Anabaptists in that area, perhaps Christian Z. was in hiding or had temporarily left the country?

The use of "Herr" and "Frau" for the two witnesses is unusual but I wouldn't (personally) take it as indicating high social status. Perhaps the witnesses were strangers to the parson and he was just being respectful? The Steffisburg KBs contain, as I am sure you know, many Wertmüllers.


Stähli aus Sigriswil, BE

larryzimmerman40
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Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Post by larryzimmerman40 » Tue 27. Jun 2017, 15:21

Walter wrote:
Tue 27. Jun 2017, 09:13
larryzimmerman40 wrote:
Tue 27. Jun 2017, 06:11
... Christen Zimmermann was well known as Anabaptist at that point. But I don't see the word after his name as Teuffer.
Der erste Buchstabe ist vermutlich schon ein etwas spezielles "T" (siehe Anhang).

Ich lese inzwischen auch "Teuffer" (= Täufer), mit 2x dem gleichen "e".


alte T.png
Danke Walter und alle, die Ideen beigetragen haben. Ja, der erste Buchstabe ist vermutlich ein spezielles "T", und das Wort kann Teuffer sein. Christen Zimmermann war Täufer. Es ist nicht klar, warum der Pfarrer Anab. in anderen Einträgen schrieb, wie Helmut darauf hinwies.



larryzimmerman40
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Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Post by larryzimmerman40 » Tue 27. Jun 2017, 15:45

bstahly wrote:
Tue 27. Jun 2017, 14:31
Larry
Zimmermann was well known as Anabaptist at that point. But I don't see the word after his name as Teuffer.
I agree that the initial letter looks like an “E” and I certainly didn't take the word as “Täufer” when I first saw it---but then I am not very good at deciphering the old handwriting and always have to get hhg to help me. But when I saw that Renato had suggested “Täufer” it made sense, and I remembered seeing other initial “Ts” written in that stylized fashion.
Bruce

I am now persuaded that the word following Christen Zimmermann's name is Teuffer, as argued by Walter and others. That also was Helmut's first thought. The reason I suspect that Melchior and Dorothea Wertmüller may have been VIP is because I have found other Zimmermans of Steffisburg who were associated with some very important personages, members of the upper echelon of Bern, including the Schultheiss. Christen Zimmermann's mother was a Wertmüller from Steffisburg, so it seems reasonable to guess that Melchior and Dorothea were related, but how? Yes, it is quite possible that Christen Zimmermann and Barbara Bachmann had children in Switzerland in that gap from 1687 to 1695, kids who remained hidden. Additionally, they may have had children in Alsace after the Amish exodus. I believe that Christen Zimmermann of Denzlingen, my 5th g-grandfather, was likely born about 1705. But the births of Amish children generally were not recorded in Alsace during the period, so I may never be able to prove a link to Christen Zimmermann and Babi Bachmann, or any other specific Zimmermann family that joined the Amish gathered around Ste. Marie-aux-Mines.



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Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Post by Walter » Tue 27. Jun 2017, 16:47

larryzimmerman40 wrote:
Mon 26. Jun 2017, 16:19
... aber ich weiß nichts über Herr Melchior Werthmüller und Frau Dorothea Werthmüller, die Zeugen im Jahre 1695. Hat jemand mehr Informationen über sie?
Auf der Ehen-CD gibt es einen Melchior Werthmüller von Thun, welcher am 12.02.1682 in Thierachern eine Anna Völkli (auch von Thun) heiratete, vielleicht ist das der Gesuchte.

Leider gibt es auf der CD nur eine Dorothea Werthmüller, welche am 16.02.1590 in Steffisburg den Johannes Zimmermann heiratete, die ist aber 1695 sicher längst verstorben :? .
Last edited by Walter on Tue 27. Jun 2017, 21:12, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Post by Walter » Tue 27. Jun 2017, 17:25

Nachtrag:

In den Aufzeichnungen von Thun findet man im Taufrodel 01 (1578-1728) (unter anderen) folgende Werthmüller-Kinder:
Seite 219 / 1653 > Melchior, Eltern Melchior W. & Verena Küng
Seite 251 / 1665 > Dorothe, gleiche Eltern wie oben

Die frühen Tauf- und Eherodel von Thun sind 1772 einem Brand zum Opfer gefallen, es gibt nur diese sehr groben Aufzeichnungen aus Taufscheinen und auswärtigen Kirchenbüchern.


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larryzimmerman40
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Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Post by larryzimmerman40 » Tue 27. Jun 2017, 22:37

Thank you, Walter!



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