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Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Tue 2. Jun 2015, 17:21
by larryzimmerman40
Walter, Felber, and all

Walter said: Das ist aber wirklich ein schwieriges Rätsel!

Yes, as I often tell my family, genealogy is fascinating because it involves trying to solve a gigantic puzzle.

Special thanks again to Walter. I had seen the second marriage of Uli Güntlisperg in 1588, but I had missed the marriage of Margreth Güntlisperg and Peter Träyer on 11 Dec 1601. I do not find a baptism record for that Margreth, but I think she very likely was the daughter of Uli Güntlisperg and Rosina Winhart, Uli’s first wife (m. 1574). That would explain a younger Margreth Güntlisperg.

There also is a problem with two Nicklaus Zimmermans living at same time, same place. As I wrote yesterday, the Steffisburg Kirchenbuch has Anna baptized 20 Nov 1603, d/o Nicklaus Zimmerman and Margreth Güntlisperg (according to the entry). But there is a well-documented record for Nicklaus, probably the son of Stephen Zimmerman and Margreth Güntlisperg, baptized in 1575, who married Trini Marpach in 1595, had a daughter with her in 1597, then married second wife Appolonia Rüsser in 1601, and had children with her until 1621. There is ample evidence that Nicklaus was living and that his wife Appolonia was living until at least that year. So who was the Nicklaus Zimmerman having a daughter with Margreth Güntlisperg in 1603, the same time period.

I believe the most reasonable explanation is that the minister made a mistake on the 20 Nov 1603 baptism of Anna Zimmerman, somehow entering the wrong name for Anna's mother—just as Felber suggested. Nicklaus Zimmerman was the father, but the mother was his wife Appolonia Rüsser, not Margreth Güntlisperg. Nicklaus’ mother probably was Margreth Güntlisperg (wife of Steffan Zimmerman).

It is quite confusing, and perhaps there is another explanation, but I think the best answer is that the minster made a mistake. Like Felber, I too have encountered mistakes in the church records. My 3rd great-grandfather Michel Zimmerman of Denzlingen, Baden, married Barbara Roggy at Riedseltz, Bas-Rhin in 1801. The minister entered the wrong name for Michel’s deceased father. I finally found a second marriage for Michel in the French records and determined the correct name for my 4th great-grandfather.

Thanks to everyone for the ongoing help.

Best regards
Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Wed 10. Jun 2015, 15:52
by larryzimmerman40
Hallo noch einmal

The Historiches Lexikon der Schweiz has an entry for Eriz BE, which includes this information:

In Ausser- (Äppenschwendi, Bühl, Kapfern, Losenegg) und Inner-E. (Halten, Niedermatt, Linden [sog. Dörfli] . . .

Can anyone tell me if there is a known connection between Losenegg, the place name, and Losenegger, the family name? The Familiennamenbuch der Schweiz says family name Losenegger is an old name from Buchholterberg and Signau.

The Michel Zimmerman (c. 1616-1677) who I have been researching (husband of Dichtli Küntzi) was born in Eriz, possibly the son of Hans Zimmerman in Eriz and Barbli Winteregg. The parents of Hans may have been Hans Zimmerman and Anni Losenegger, married 25 Jun 1566.

Best regards to all,
Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Wed 10. Jun 2015, 16:56
by Walter
larryzimmerman40 wrote:… Can anyone tell me if there is a known connection between Losenegg, the place name, and Losenegger, the family name? The Familiennamenbuch der Schweiz says family name Losenegger is an old name from Buchholterberg and Signau.
Emmentaler Geschlechter- und Wappenbuch von H.R. Christen (ISBN 3-85681-405-1)
Seite 350 > Losenegger
Namensdeutung
Siedlungsname: Ober und Unter Losenegg, Aussereriz, Gde. Eriz (Imobersteg 244) ...

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Wed 10. Jun 2015, 17:34
by larryzimmerman40
Thanks, Walter. That is exactly what I was looking for, a link between family name and place.
Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sat 20. Jun 2015, 05:24
by larryzimmerman40
In my post on 1 Jun 2015, I wrote about the “strange matter” of a Steffisburg Kirchenbuch entry dated 20 Nov 1603 for the baptism of Anna, d/o Nicklaus Zimmerman. The mother was identified as Margreth Güntisperg, but that did not make sense. Felber responded with this post:
Is it possible that Niklaus Zimmermann and Apollonia Rüsser were the parents of Anna (*1603) and the priest simply made a mistake with the name of the mother? I've seen a couple of such mistakes in churchbooks.

After a thorough analysis, I have concluded that Felber was correct—the Steffisburg minister made a mistake.

First, I was unable to find a marriage record at Steffisburg for the couple Nicklaus Zimmerman and Margreth Güntisperg (Güntlisperg), and Walter Stauffenegger informed me that he found no such marriage record auf der CD "Ehen im Kanton Bern."

But there was a much earlier marriage between a Zimmerman and a Güntlisperg. As I reported previously, Steffan Zimmerman and Margreth Güntlisperg were married at Steffisburg on 19 Nov 1574. Steffan Zimmerman had a son Nicklaus baptized on 30 Jan 1575. The mother was not named, but she probably was Margreth Güntlisperg. I think it likely that this Nicklaus was the person of that name who married Trini Marpach on 8 Dec 1595 (1st wife) and Appolonia Rüsser on 20 Mar 1601 (2nd wife).

Two more children were presented for baptism by Steffan/Stephen Zimmerman and Margreth Güntlisperg, the last in 1596, a son Hans. That birth was almost 22 years after the marriage of Steffan and Margreth. Margreth had to be near the end of her childbearing years when Hans was born in 1596. If she were just 21 at the time of her marriage in 1574, she was about 43 when she had Hans.

However, the 1603 record clearly names the mother of Anna Zimmerman as Margreth Güntlisperg. Was there a younger woman of the same name? The answer is yes. A woman named Margreth Güntlisperg married Peter Träyer at Steffisburg on 11 Dec 1601. Unfortunately, there is no baptismal record in the Steffisburg Kirchenbuch for this woman, but she very likely was the daughter of Uli Güntlisperg—probably a brother of the older Margreth—who married at Steffisburg in 1574, just days after the marriage of Margreth.

Güntlisperg was not a common name in Steffisburg, and the only records I have found are for Margreth and Uli, both married in 1574, and the younger Margreth, married in 1601.

The obvious question arises: Did the minister make a mistake when he named Margreth Güntlisperg as the mother of Anna Zimmerman in the 1603 baptism entry? I believe the evidence strongly points in that direction. Evidence shows that the father of Anna was, in fact, Nicklaus the son of Steffan Zimmerman and Margreth Güntlisperg, and the husband of Appolonia Rüsser. The evidence strongly suggests the mother of Anna was actually Appolonia Rüsser. I think the most reasonable explanation of the 1603 record is that the minister inadvertently entered Nicklaus’ mother’s name in the baptismal record instead of his wife’s name. The elder Margreth Güntlisperg may have attended the 1603 baptism ceremony as the grandmother of the baby Niclaus. The minister apparently wrote the grandmother’s name in place of the mother.

The mistaken record of 1603 has been repeated in genealogies found on Family Search and elsewhere. Those genealogies also make another mistake by stating the mother’s name as Püntlisperg. That is probably because an American genealogist misread the script “G” as a “P” and published that version in his report. Examination of the 1603 record clearly shows that it was Güntlisperg . The Familiennamenbuch der Schweiz shows that the Güntlisperger [Güntlisperg] family held citizenship in three Bernese Gemeinden before 1800, so it is an old Swiss name, today spelled Guntlisberger.

Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Mon 24. Aug 2015, 22:08
by larryzimmerman40
Hansen Ruchti, s/o Christen Ruchti and Verena Zimmerman, was baptized at Steffisburg on 21 Feb 1658. Taufzeugen: Christen Im Hoof, Anthoni Schneiter, Madlena Stauffer. But I am unable to read the words between the name of the father and the mother. Can anyone help me decipher those words? The image from KB 4, Seite 12 is attached. Vielen Dank.

Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Tue 25. Aug 2015, 15:26
by bstahly
Larry,

It is Latin, as you doubtless know. Although my years of studying Latin are far in the past, if I could make out the handwriting I could possibly help. I can make out "ides", which is a date roughly in the middle of the month. The preceding word, on the previous line, seems to go with "ides" based on the ending "es". And then "acesse me correptg?" However, that makes no sense to me, so probably I am misreading the handwriting. I wonder if the first word following the father's name could be a placename, and then the Latin begins.

I have come across this problem before in the Steffisburg KB: Latin or even Greek (classical, I presume) words inserted in the baptismal registry (other than, of course, the usual "parentes", "testes" or "eodem"). I am always interested in these words, as I wonder whether the scribe was trying to hide something interesting from casual prying eyes.

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Wed 26. Aug 2015, 01:25
by larryzimmerman40
bstahly

Thanks for the response. I too see Latin, but my high school Latin was done about 1954, so needless to say, I recall almost nothing. The handwriting through this period of the Steffisburg church records was terrible, so it is very difficult to make it out. I agree that the first word after Christen Ruchti may be a place name, but I can’t identify where. I have a 1691 entry from the Steffisburg Chorgerichtsmanual saying that a Christen Ruchti (perhaps a different man) from Teuffenthal had given a statement before the court, but the word in the Kirchenbuch is not Teuffenthal. There seems to be a symbol after “acesse” and before “me” but I have no idea what it means. Still hoping someone can decipher. The Latin may or may not be of value in understanding this genealogical record for Christen Ruchti and Verena Zimmerman and their son Hans, but I’m curious what the minister was writing about the couple. As you said, what was he keeping from prying eyes?

I’m working to uncover my Amish Mennonite Zimmerman ancestors.

Christen Ruchti and Verena Zimmerman had four children baptized at Steffisburg, including Christen on 30 Mar 1662. This younger Christen Ruchti married Anna Kauffman d/o Isaac Kauffman (a “notorious” Anabaptist from Steffisburg). Christen the younger may have lived at Bénaville, Alsace, for a time after leaving Switzerland in the Amish diaspora, then immigrated to Pennsylvania in 1736.

Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Wed 26. Aug 2015, 23:17
by bstahly
Hi Larry:

Your comment about the symbol in the Latin phrase reminded me that the Latin phrase (also from Steffisburg KB) that I had difficulty with, and which was deciphered by others on this forum, also contained a symbol. I tracked down that earlier entry (which was posted on my behalf by hhg) and found the reference (provided by hpj) to old scholarly Latin symbols.

Here is the link:

http://www.paleography.unifr.ch/steffen ... chrift.pdf

The symbol closest to the one in the baptismal entry for Hans Ruchti seems to be shorthand for "per". The last word in the Latin phrase could possibly be a form of the English verbs to "censure" or "reprimand." Thus, the last part of the phrase is (perhaps) something like "reprimanded by me." The first part of the phrase is still a mystery to me, and I am no longer certain that the word "ides" refers to a date in the middle of the month, as I first thought. But if I am correct, the phrase possibly indicates that the father was guilty of some infraction that incurred the displeasure of the pastor.

MfG, Bruce Stahly

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Thu 27. Aug 2015, 06:11
by larryzimmerman40
Bruce

With the help of my wife who is a far better linguist than I am, I may have gotten most of the Latin transcribed and translated. I still can’t make out that first word after Christen Ruchti’s name: Bieberg? Or is it “brig” on the end? But the Latin that follows is: eum s. peteret ideo acerbe (symbol like an “f”) me correptes. Something about “for that reason, I harshly admonished him.” However, I’m still not sure why the minister is reproaching Ruchti so bitterly—perhaps because of his suspected or known Anabaptist views?

Regards
Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Fri 28. Aug 2015, 13:25
by hhg
Hi Larry & Bruce,

just a thought that may be totally off - if the letters, following Christian Ruchti's name, were N. B. (abreviation for nota bene/remark), would the following word ?ehrig??ewig? make any sense?

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Fri 28. Aug 2015, 14:44
by bstahly
hhg wrote: if the letters, following Christian Ruchti's name, were N. B. (abreviation for nota bene/remark), would the following word ?ehrig??ewig? make any sense?
Hi Helmut,

I have to rely on internet Latin dictionaries as my own dictionary is long gone. Unfortunately, the Latin terms "ehrig" or "ewig" do not turn up anything. My own idea (entirely speculative) is that Christen Ruchti was tardy in presenting little Hans for baptism, as could certainly been the case if the family was Anabaptist or Halbtäufer. That would, of course, be a reason for a reprimand by the pastor, but in fact there is no evidence for that (so far). Larry tells me that Verena Zimmerman, the mother, was likely a brother to Peter Zimmerman, the Anabaptist refugee to Ste. Marie-aux-Mines, and who married Verena Stähli (not my family) in Steffisburg in 1666. So there is some hint of Anabaptism.

If Larry's tentative translation is correct (as it seems to me very likely), then the antecedent of "for that reason" must be contained in the few words following the father's name.

best wishes, Bruce

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sat 29. Aug 2015, 03:27
by larryzimmerman40
I think Helmut is correct. The Latin phrase begins with N. B. Here is how I read it.
N. B. ebrius eum s. peteret ideo acerbe [symbol similar to “f” that may mean “per”] me correptes.
My translation is that Christen Ruchti the father was drunk (ebrius), and the minister harshly reproved him for that reason.

Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sat 29. Aug 2015, 07:25
by hhg
though disappointing for anabastic research, this seems BINGO to me! And congrats your guy's latin studies payed off ...

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sun 18. Oct 2015, 03:44
by larryzimmerman40
I am having trouble reading an entry for the 18 Sep 1668 marriage of Hans Äbersold and Madle Zimmerman (Steffisburg K15, 61). The minister added what appears to be a “s.s.”(sub sugillo) after the name of the groom, Hans Äbersold von Diessbach. Can anyone tell me what that phrase, presumably in Latin, says?

Thanks for any help.
Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sun 18. Oct 2015, 12:34
by Wolf
"s.s." stands for "sub sigillo" = "under a seal" ... I cannot explain, however, what it actually means in the context.

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sun 18. Oct 2015, 16:02
by bstahly
A bit of googling indicates that "sub sigillo" means "secretly" or "privately." Is there any known reason why this marriage would have been performed privately? And, what is that word following the symbol, and before the bride's name?

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sun 18. Oct 2015, 17:29
by Wolf
This is exactly what I couldn't explain :?. What does it mean in the context? It doesn't seem to be secret - it's listed in the church record: I have never heard about a marriage taking place secretly, but being recorded in such a way? Alternatively
- could it be that some information is withheld, and this is indicated by "s.s."?
- is it related to the text following "s.s." (which I find difficult to decipher)?

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sun 18. Oct 2015, 18:38
by bstahly
Wolf wrote:It doesn't seem to be secret - it's listed in the church record
Would being listed in the parish register necessarily preclude the marriage from being a secret? Inclusion in the PR would have been obligatory, it seems to me, if the marriage was to have been considered legal in the eyes of the church and the state. But I don't suppose that just anyone was allowed to browse through the PR --- probably access was controlled by the parson. It is curious. The only thing that occurs to me is that perhaps one or both of the individuals was being married without the consent of parents: i.e, the couple was of age, but someone, possibly a parent, had some objection. Was the issuance of banns several weeks before a marriage a common practice in the Reformed Church at the time? If so, and the issuance of banns was obligatory, I don't see how the marriage could have been kept secret.

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Sun 18. Oct 2015, 19:16
by Walter
Bei Wikipedia gefunden (Liste lateinischer Phrasen):

Sub sigillo confessionis
„Unter dem Beichtsiegel“ – Unter Wahrung des Beichtgeheimnisses


Hilft das weiter?

Upps, schon zu spät, siehe hier

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Mon 19. Oct 2015, 07:15
by hhg
"Schnappsidee" eines Sprachen-Amateurs: könnte das nach dem s.s. folgende Wort eine Form von ?adulterio? = Ehebruch (adultery) sein?

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Mon 19. Oct 2015, 09:55
by Walter
Eine weitere "Schnapsidee" von mir:

Bei vergrössertem Ausschnitt (siehe Anhang) lese ich "adultidifradres", vielleicht Adulti di fradres?
Bin aber leider kein Lateiner.

Re: s.s. = sub sigillo

Posted: Mon 19. Oct 2015, 10:04
by Bochtella
Grüezi Lesende,

die Buchstabenlesart s.s. überzeugt noch nicht.
Auch die Abkürzungspunkte sind nicht erkennbar.
Könnten es allenfalls zwei „f“ oder „p“ sein, was andere Schlüsse zulassen würde?
Oder ist es eine Einschubmarke, die auf eine ergänzende Textstelle auf dem gleichen Blatt verweist?
Die Wiedergabe des ganzen Blattes könnte vielleicht weiterführen.

Bochtella

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Mon 19. Oct 2015, 10:26
by hhg
???fradre = Bruder??? Hatte Braut oder Bräutigam eine frühere Beziehung zu Bruder/Schwester des neuen Gatten?

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Mon 19. Oct 2015, 11:14
by Walter
hhg wrote:???fradre = Bruder??? Hatte Braut oder Bräutigam eine frühere Beziehung zu Bruder/Schwester des neuen Gatten?
Oder waren die Zwei illegitime Geschwister? (Mitteilung unter Schweigepflicht?).
Fradres (Brüder?) passt da aber leider nicht ganz :?

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Mon 19. Oct 2015, 17:33
by Renato
Hallo an alle 8-)

Ist der Bräutigam noch minderjährig und sein Vater bereits verstorben? Hier mein Vorschlag:

pp (per procurationem) adultioris fratris = kraft Vollmacht des erwachsenen Bruders

Heirat macht mündig. Aber um heiraten zu können, braucht es die Bewilligung des Vaters oder in diesem Fall eben des älteren Bruders. Wahrscheinlich war schon ein Kind unterwegs und die Heirat entsprechend dringlich.

Gruss
Renato

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Tue 20. Oct 2015, 06:40
by larryzimmerman40
Renato

Interesting possibility that it could be pp (per procurationem), but the letters may be ff. I have attached another image from the next page in the Steffisburg KB. See how the minister wrote ff in Steffan and Rüffenach. However I don’t know what ff would mean.

Unfortunately, I don’t have much information about Hans Äbersold. According to the 1668 marriage record, he was from Diessbach, but I have nothing regarding his parents or his age. The Steffisburg Kirchenbuch shows that a Bendicht Äbersold and his wife Barbli Rüsser had a son baptized at Steffisburg 23 Nov 1662. Perhaps Bendicht was an older brother? As for the possibility that Madle Zimmerman was pregnant, making the need to marry Hans Äbersold urgent, I cannot confirm. I have not found any birth records for children of that couple, but perhaps they were recorded at Diessbach—I do not have that KB.

I have been trying to track several Zimmermans who left Steffisburg after the Thirty-Years’ War and migrated to Württemberg, including a widow Anna Zimmerman (widow of Michel Farni) who lived for a time in Heidelberg, then disappeared after the Great Fire in 1693. An entry in the Steffisburg Chorgerichtsmanual says Hans Äbersold was “ihr Schwager,” so Anna and Madle Zimmerman were sisters.

Gruss
Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Tue 20. Oct 2015, 14:39
by bstahly
The more I think on the idea of a “secret marriage” between Hans Äbersold and Madla Zimmermann, the more I find it unlikely. If marriage banns were usual, or mandatory, then the marriage could not have been secret. And after the marriage? The couple could not have lived together unless they were known to have been married, and if they moved away, their joint disappearance would certainly have been noted.
Renato wrote:Vorschlag:
pp (per procurationem) adultioris fratris = kraft Vollmacht des erwachsenen Bruders.
Renato's suggestion seems more likely to me, but of course it depends on a correct interpretation of the handwriting, and the age of the groom at the time of the marriage.
larryzimmerman40 wrote: The Steffisburg Kirchenbuch shows that a Bendicht Äbersold and his wife Barbli Rüsser had a son baptized at Steffisburg 23 Nov 1662. Perhaps Bendicht was an older brother?
According to Robert Baecher's article in Mennonite Family History (April 2004) on the Amish from Steffisburg, Benedict Äbersold was baptized at Münsingen on 25 July 1641, son of Ulrich. Benedict died at Baldenheim, Bas-Rhin, in 1691. A footnote by Baecher references an article in Mennonite Family History, volume 19, 2000, about the Anabaptist Äbersolds from Münsingen, but I do not have that issue, so I cannot check whether Hans Äbersold was part of that family.

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Tue 20. Oct 2015, 16:57
by larryzimmerman40
Bruce

Thanks for pointing to Robert Baecher's article. I see the footnote you referenced in the April 2004 issue of MFH, but I don't have the Oct 2000 issue. I just ordered a copy from Masthof, but it will take a week or so to arrive.

Larry

Re: Zimmermann von Steffisburg BE

Posted: Tue 20. Oct 2015, 17:18
by Felber
I have the CDs of the churchbooks of Oberdiessbach.

Luckily the baptism book from 1663-1684 has an newer index. I've looked up all Aebersold during that time, but I haven't found Hans Aebersold and Magdalena Zimmermann.

Kind regards

Olivier Felber